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- NATION, Page 32Shevardnadze: "Allow Me to Disagree"
-
-
- By John Kohan, Ann Blackman, Eduard Shevardnadze.
-
-
- In his first interview with a U.S. magazine, Eduard
- Shevardnadze met with TIME Moscow bureau chief John Kohan and
- correspondent Ann Blackman last week in a small sitting room next
- to his office on the seventh floor of the Soviet Foreign Ministry.
- After handing over his written answers to several questions that
- had been submitted in advance, the Soviet Foreign Minister spent
- 45 minutes fielding spontaneous questions.
-
- Q. Do you think President Bush's foreign policy is in disarray?
-
- A. To some extent. We fully understand that a new
- Administration needs a certain amount of time to assess its foreign
- policy priorities. But I will be able to give a fuller answer after
- my talks with Secretary of State James Baker. We have to begin
- working together. There are quite a few problems.
-
- Q. What do you think of U.S. Defense Secretary Cheney's public
- expression of doubt about perestroika and of his speculation that
- Gorbachev may be replaced by a leader less friendly to the West?
-
- A. That particular statement is incompetent and not serious.
- I think President Bush understands the situation quite well when
- he says perestroika is an irreversible process. We had no
- alternative, and we have no alternative. Perestroika will succeed.
-
- Q. Are you concerned that Bush may be taking a harder line than
- Reagan toward the Soviet Union?
-
- A. Well, if that were to happen, the U.S. people would fail to
- understand the policy. The world would not understand such a
- turnaround.
-
- Q. Is the Soviet Union trying to drive a wedge into the
- alliance by persuading West Germany to push for the elimination of
- tactical nuclear weapons?
-
- A. We have absolutely no intention of trying to drive a wedge
- between the NATO allies. But we do have a position of principle.
- We must begin negotiating the reduction and eventual elimination
- of tactical nuclear missiles. We shall in the future be even more
- aggressive in pursuing this goal because it is in the interest of
- all European nations, the Soviet Union and the U.S. Why can't we
- negotiate along parallel tracks on strategic weapons, conventional
- arms, chemical weapons and also tactical nuclear weapons? And then,
- later on, we shall discuss the naval forces, which is a topic the
- West does not like.
-
- Q. How far can the countries of Eastern Europe go in developing
- relations with the West?
-
- A. Just as far as any NATO country can go in developing its
- relations with the East.
-
- Q. Can you imagine any scenario under which disturbances inside
- a Warsaw Pact country would require Soviet military intervention?
-
- A. No, I cannot. Let me point out that the U.S. refuses to rule
- out the possibility of the use of force in a situation that, in
- the U.S. view, threatens American "vital interests."
-
- Q. If you could get only one concession from the U.S. in
- arms-control talks, what would it be?
-
- A. A single concession will not suffice. And it's not
- concessions that we should be talking about, but rather a joint
- search for formulas that will ensure universal security. I am
- convinced that this is quite possible. Conditions are now ripe for
- a breakthrough in the prohibition of chemical weapons, the
- reduction of conventional arms in Europe and cuts in Soviet and
- U.S. strategic offensive weapons.
-
- Q. With General Secretary Gorbachev preparing to travel to
- China later this month, what kind of relationship do you envision
- with that country? Can it be as close as it was in the 1950s?
-
- A. We foresee normal, good-neighborly relations with China. Of
- course there can be no return to the 1950s. That is not the
- objective. But neither can there be a return to the 1960s.
-
- Q. Now that Soviet forces have withdrawn from Afghanistan, are
- you confident that the government in Kabul can bring peace to the
- country?
-
- A. I am confident that it will be able to do so. The situation
- is made more difficult by Pakistan's massive intervention in
- support of the intransigent Afghan opposition. That interference
- must stop. But lasting peace in Afghanistan can be secured only by
- the Afghans themselves.
-
- Q. Has the slow progress of perestroika made your job as
- Foreign Minister more difficult?
-
- A. Allow me to disagree with your assessment. Without
- perestroika there would have been no changes in international
- relations. Recently your magazine printed a special issue called
- The New U.S.S.R. This is a very fitting title. The Soviet Union is
- indeed new. It will take time to get settled in this house, which
- we are now rebuilding, so that life in it will be comfortable.
-
- We are not saying everything is going well both inside the
- country and in our foreign relations. In both areas there are
- difficulties. Nevertheless, these are just trees, and we must
- prevent ourselves from not seeing the forest of perestroika for the
- trees of imperfection.
-
- Q. As the former First Secretary of the Georgian Republic, you
- went there to restore calm last month after the army killed 20
- demonstrators. But there have been differing accounts of whether
- the protesters died from poison gas. Why is it that glasnost
- sometimes disappears in times of crisis?
-
- A. Sometimes we are somewhat late in responding and reacting
- to sudden events. There is an investigation under way, and the
- results will be published. It's not for the American press that we
- are doing this. We are doing this for our people.
-
- Q. How serious is your country's nationalities problem?
-
- A. It is among our most complex and difficult issues. Here too
- we must move faster in adopting a new way of thinking. In a number
- of places, senior party and Soviet officials have clung to the old
- habit of commanding and administering; there are examples of
- extreme intolerance to any criticism and an unwillingness to talk
- with people holding unorthodox views. Occasionally, there is a
- trend to stick labels on people, to accuse them of all sins
- imaginable and not to hear them out.
-
- Naturally, one wonders why it is that if we maintain civilized
- dialogue with representatives from other countries, we sometimes
- are unable to do that with various members of our own society.
-
- Q. What has been your greatest achievement as Foreign Minister?
-
- A. I am hard put to answer that question. I keep no records
- and make no comparisons. I am pleased with every positive result,
- big or small. What I take to heart much more is the failures and
- missed opportunities, which, unfortunately, have been many.
-
- Q. How do you keep up the pace?
-
- A. That's my secret. I go in for some sports, particularly
- swimming. Maybe I'll tell you the other secrets in a few years. At
- the moment, however, all of us have to work very hard. After we
- have eliminated all nuclear weapons, all chemical weapons, after
- we have substantially reduced conventional weapons so that they are
- within the limits of reasonable defensive sufficiency, after we
- have completed our perestroika, then we shall take up sports very
- seriously.
-
- Q. We understand that you work so late that you are the person
- who turns out the lights and shuts the door.
-
- A. I accept that criticism. (He smiles.)
-